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Post by Brackenroad Stables on Dec 18, 2010 22:12:44 GMT -5
Hey! I've seen, in almost all pedigrees, the use of real horses in model bloodlines. I'd like to use real horses as parents for my horses, but I was wondering (and this might be a really obvious question) if you have to ask the owners of the real horses to use them? I figured it was a little like fantasy football- you don't really ask the football players if you can use them in your fantasy football teams, because it's kind of a given that you will. But I also thought that not all real horse people are into model horses. Could someone please help? Much thanks, Epilogue
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Post by Courtney on Dec 18, 2010 23:19:45 GMT -5
I've never heard of anyone asking for the owner's permission to use the real horses. I think most people consider it a bit like fantasy football, kind of like an "artistic license".
However, that does bring up a good question about those people who charge money to use their horse's pedigrees, even though they don't "own" the rights to the real horses. Much like selling someone else's art? But, who knows?
For a straight answer--no, you do not HAVE to ask for permission. I'd be interested in hearing what they answered, if you did, though!
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Post by threeribbonstable on Dec 19, 2010 1:26:37 GMT -5
Most Pa'ers reccomend that you don't contact real owners. Even Breyer mentions it in their magazine periodically. The main reason is because it's awkward and confusing to most people that you try to explain it to. Besides that, you really don't want to open up any possible legal cans of worms. But, the best way to avoid any conflict is to stay away from sites that specifically mention that the names/images/and or desriptions of their horses can not be used in part or in whole without express permission. Try horse selling sites that are more casual and general than Ranch or Breeding Facility specific. I know some people are real sticklers for true to life PA's, but for myself, I'm not THAT dedicated
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Post by pookaa on Dec 19, 2010 9:48:25 GMT -5
I agree with the comments here - I treat it like fantasy football and do not contact the owners. I also put a disclaimer on every page of my website that states "The names of any real horses used in pedigrees are for educational and/or entertainment purposes only."
I don't charge money for PA - in fact I don't know anyone who does anymore. That used to be the norm, but that was before everything was electronic and you had to print out lists and pedigrees.
Cheers, Kay
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Post by silvermoon on Dec 19, 2010 10:13:57 GMT -5
I don't ask permission either, but I always do state on the homepage that horses with *r* behind their names are real horses, and that they are only for entertainment and educational prupose. Though, sometimes (with rare breeds for example) I like to search model horse studs who offer stallions and mares of that breed for PA, because otherwise, it costs me hours upon hours to find 2 matching parents with the right conformation and color genetics. ;D
I'd find it a bit strange to charge money for the use of model horses in pedigrees, because as Courtney and Kay said, your horse's pedigree was created by using real horses, so then you would have to pay the real horse's owner too for that matter? And besides that, you don't have to pay for printing the certifite when it's e-mailed to you. Unless the certificate is color printed on paper and sent to you by post, there's no reason you should pay right?
*kudos for anyone who read this and understood what I meant ;D *
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Post by Dorian Park on Dec 19, 2010 21:09:03 GMT -5
I wondered the same thing when I started, and at first I felt a little weird using names without the owner's permission. ;D I'm not quite sure how I would feel if anyone used the pedigree from one of my real stallions for model horses. I guess it would be a little flattering, but at the same time I would kind of prefer that they asked permission. I can see though that it's usually best not to contact the owner, for all the reasons stated above. I was actually contacted by the owner of one of the American Saddlebred stallions I used as a sire, and she was very interested in learning more about the hobby and selection process of sires and dams, and didn't seem too upset by it thankfully! I wonder if there have ever been any legal issues with model PA...
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Post by Firefly on Dec 19, 2010 21:24:56 GMT -5
I wonder if there have ever been any legal issues with model PA... Hmmm... me too.
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Post by pookaa on Dec 21, 2010 7:43:00 GMT -5
I wonder if there have ever been any legal issues with model PA... I'm not sure what legal basis they would have to file any action. What damages have been done? All of the information is public record and, as noted, used for entertainment/education. I do know one gal who got into a huge kerfluffle with a woman a couple of years ago. She had used the woman's (deceased) stallion as the sire of a BSO (Breeding Stock Only) horse, and used the BSO as a sire of one of her models. It was pretty silly (IMHO), and here is what I wrote at the time: It's a shame that some people think that our use of their real horses in pedigrees is somehow a slight on their animal or breeding program. That said, if someone asked me not to use their horse in PA, I would probably explain to them why I selected their animal, noting appropriate color genetics, bloodlines, performance attributes, etc, but acknowledging if they were still uncomfortable with it, I would make the necessary changes. After all, what we do is a hobby - what they do is a business. Cheers, Kay
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Post by Courtney on Dec 21, 2010 13:03:18 GMT -5
Well said!
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Post by Dorian Park on Dec 21, 2010 23:25:30 GMT -5
Well said! Agreed. I can see where there would be an issue though if someone was making profit from it. Edit: Because my post didn't make sense when I read it again. ;D
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Post by Rebekka on Dec 22, 2010 5:18:56 GMT -5
yupp its rare real horse owner allowes anything like that. I thou have stallion after my neighbours swedish warmblood mare and I got arabian model from states send to me and we made it pedigree after the foal that did die, the sender was real arabian horse breeder you see. she did own both mare and stallion and the foal did die but we did my model to honour that little one. thou most my horses arent asked from those real owners because its way too confusing and as said earlier....
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Post by shadowhawke on Dec 22, 2010 12:21:37 GMT -5
Wasn't there a big thing with a guy and Gypsy Vanners?? I think a model person contacted him and he got all defensive about it. Which is kinda why I don't and won't have Vanners in the barn...... Some owners are good, some aren't. About 11 years ago I took riding lessons. The instuctor gave me copies of her horses(ASB's) so I could use them for PA....never did make a pedigree withTwilight(Mare I rode) lost the pedigrees, and can't remeber her registred name. If I meet the owner I'll ask, if not I won't...was just thinking how neat it would be to contace Penny Cheaney(Secrertarit's owner) and ask her, or at least tell her I have a son of Secretariat...wonder what she'd say??
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Post by threeribbonstable on Dec 22, 2010 16:08:13 GMT -5
I don't know what she'd say, but I don't think someone like her would mind. I think big name people who are involved in the programs and promotions that Breyer runs to advertise portrait models and real life horses would be way more understanding of the PA hobby than someone that hasn't had that kind of exposure.
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Post by highroller21 on Dec 22, 2010 17:36:20 GMT -5
I use *real* horses and only had 1 or 2 of the owners contact me. They were really nice about it and was really glad that I used their horse for reference's. One owner wanted me to send her a photo AND the pedigree of the model that was used. I did and the outcome was very pleasent. The owner contacted me via phone and we talked for hours. She wanted to know all about the hobby and about PAing etc. Of course I gave her 3 hours of information. She was thrilled that people in our hobby actually used real horses in our breeding programs. I fell out of my chair when she stated that on a real horse forum that she was a member of they were talking about us model horse owners were using real horses and she defended us. She went on about how one horse owner wanted to sue every model horse owner that used his stallion for our models. She told him that it was a big hobby and it would be absolutely fruitless to search these "Stealers" out and sue us. I was laughing so hard. She was too cause of the way she said it. Anyway, I wouldn't worry about contacting any of the real horse owners unless they contact you first. Just be sure to state on your front page that you only use real horses for reference/entertainment reasons and if the ower would like to contact you there is an email.
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Post by Gubbera Park on Dec 23, 2010 18:16:33 GMT -5
Lol, strangely enough this has come up on another group - a real horse owner has contacted the group and said they want anyone who has used the horse to remove it from their pedigrees as they don't appreciate it and those who did use it did not ask permission. Everyone's differant in the way they react to things, eh?
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